Seriously people. Calm down.
Recently there have been some disagreements between Peter Joseph and the Venus Project. And now my research on the “TROLL” documentary gets more data in the form of all of the people spreading hysteria that this will mean that the movement will somehow fold. I am going to be blunt about this. This quite simply, is nonsense.
Peter Joseph helped the movement a great deal with research, making great movies, and providing some good guidance. But he was not even involved with the vast majority of the day to day work of the movement. He rarely attended meetings, and does not generally get involved with any of the working aspects of the movement itself. The chapter coordinators, moderators, etc. handled all of that. And while this obviously means that there won't be anymore films coming from Peter about the Venus Project, it does not suddenly mean the sky is falling.
Virtually every function of the movement was already being run by other people. Peter has stated he will continue to fund the global movement's work. Which is highly generous. He is not leaving the movement. He is just stepping back from any form of spokesman role. This does not by any means that he is no longer an activist for this direction. But the newsletter, chapter coordination, etc. was all already handled by other people anyway. And those people did not suddenly cease to exist.
Peter was never the leader. Despite propaganda to the contrary. And everything I point out above was part of that. He would share his views just like everyone else. He of course had some authority over the website that he pays for and administrates, but it's not like he called up every chapter coordinator and gave them directions or “orders”. It's not like he wrote every single newsletter article. It's not like he did all of the planning and the speaking. He was already asking us to step up more as he was going to be backing away before any of this. Because he needs to. He needs and deserves a break. And the reality is that if Peter stopped doing anything in the movement for a month, the average member of the movement would not even notice. You know why? Because Peter Joseph was not the movement. So much work was done by other people behind the scenes.
I am asking people to stop contributing to the hysteria. Stop posting links to these trolls videos. They are having quite the laugh at our expense. And your giving them a reward. If people do post these videos then explain to them that this is NOT the end of the Zeitgeist movement. Share this blog post with them. Right now the trolls are trying to cause a panic in the movement. It is important that people understand that the movement is not going anywhere. So Peter backs away for a while. Does this mean that suddenly everyone who saw his films doesn't feel the RBE is the best solution? Obviously not.
I absolutely appreciate everything Peter has done. And will continue to support his work. I look forward to his upcoming film about the impact of war.
I absolutely appreciate everything Peter has done. And will continue to support his work. I look forward to his upcoming film about the impact of war.
I heard the website is down. If you guys want to talk about this stuff my forums are open at V-RADIO.org. And yes, I am still doing broadcasts. And yes, when you wake up tomorrow, there will still be a Zeitgeist Movement.
I think it's about time we ramp up "production" so to speak. Poor choice of words, I know, but what we need is more spokespeople now. Both Peter and Jacque presented on RT TV, but that just isn't enough. We need people to start pushing mainstream media outlets. So, how can we get people with a similar persuasive presence to Peter (sorry, but Jacque isn't the right person for the job) to start promoting the movement so the public can see the vision provided by TVP? I would do it but I hardly have a face for radio, let alone TV. And, it's not just 1 person, but many that we need. The public needs to see this.
ReplyDeleteHello there, I'm Russian, from Irkutsk.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read the topic name seems like my heart has stopped for a second.
And now, when I've found out a meaning of my life, I don't want TZM be stopped. I don't really understand why some people want this, don't really understand why they has to keep their meaningless lives and die with no good deal done!
Regards, Diixtra.
P.S. I would be grateful to anyone who'll check out any mistakes in message.
Neil - The website is not down, it is just the intro page that is down. Follow this link: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/ to get access to the site.
ReplyDelete:) totally not the place for it, but I am a language student so I'll help with correcting the message:
ReplyDelete"Hello there, I'm Russian and I come from Irkutsk. When I read the topic I felt like my heart stopped for a second. And now, as I have found the meaning of my life, I don't want TZM to be stopped. I don't really understand why some people want this. I don't really understand why they have to keep their meaningless lives and die with no good deal done?
Regards,
Diixtra.
"
Feel free to delete this post once Diixtra has checked it :)
I'm with 'Diixtra' the Zeitgeist Movement is the best thing i have ever heard or dreamed of. I think some of the skepticism & the 'trolling' is because 'everything is runned by machines' i'm a little skeptic about that too, but what is the alternative...
ReplyDeletedeath. All these people are doing is shortening their existence. What we really need is a starship. Go to another planet & let all the non-believers kill themselves off & the planet.
Missleading title. I thought you stated "omg we are not going ANYWHERE". I understand now.
ReplyDeleteI hope most people understand what you say (and I think they do). This movement is a mindset, not a spokesperson.
Quite a shocker to see the video of Jacques going on that tangent, hurt a bit to see... if only he would recognize that Peter inserts Jacques's name and The Venus Project at the beginning of every interview, and discussion when confronting an audience, he alone has brought the venus project into a much larger audience, including myself.
ReplyDeleteI personally feel it is perhaps Jacques who is tired of being asked about TZM, ZMF, etc. when he wants to be asked about his designs...just a thought though.
OK, so he wants Peter to go to TVP more to learn more, fair enough, he could have left it at that, and cut the rest of the damaging rant.
In any case, a tough spot, but we need to come together to make up for Peter's absence, but I hope he continues to do interviews, he is such the eloquent speaker.
The title had double meanings. And it is getting the effect I want. I did a radio show about it too: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/v-radio/2011/04/15/the-zeitgeist-movement-is-not-going-anywhere
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know what started the disagreement that led to Fresco saying that stuff?
ReplyDelete2Nengi, thank you, I'll try to do less mistakes, sorry for disturbing
ReplyDeleteyeah lol, Neil, bad choice of title XD
ReplyDelete"TZM isn't ending" or similar would be less ambiguous.
And, I agree completely.
TZM is in its infancy, and it would be a grave mistake if this movement were based largely on the leadership of one or two men. Peter has, with the help of Jacque and Roxanne, laid down a sound ideology framework for this movement. Now it is up to them and rest of us to build on that framework.
ReplyDeleteTZM must start building a strong organization with structure, strategies, and objectives. The development of chapters is a good start, but it’s only a start. TZM needs to build an organization that educates its membership, set goals and strategies for reaching its objectives, and encourages its membership to become leaders in their communities. There are plenty of models throughout the world for organizational building, all we have to do is study a few of them.
I truly hope that Peter and Jacque can work out any issues between them, but the words coming from Jacque are pretty strong. We in TZM must not allow these issues to stop us from building this organization. There is much work to be done, and we’ve only jut begun.
Bakari—TZMSacDavis
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIt is very important for them to step down and take a back seat, because the whole point of this is for us to take responsibility. We must create the world that we want to live in. Bottom line is there more of us than the people who intend to enslave us.
ReplyDeleteThere is no Justice. There is Just Us.
It was unprofessional for Peter to go on a rant and essentially ragequit. He could have contacted Jacque privately and I'm sure Jacque would have been willing to clear up what he said.
ReplyDeleteSo I think there is more going on behind the scenes.
Just like Peter, who is new to economic concepts, realized how absurd it is to claim that 9/11 was an inside job and is now backtracking from his conspiracy movie, I think he realizes how absurd it is to advocate an economic system that doesn't use money and wants to now backtrack from that.
Everything he advocates in his movie and lectures (an economy that works for everyone, automation that liberates people from menial jobs, a central database that tracks resources, respect for the environment, clean energy, efficiency in production, etc.) can all be accomplished whether you use money or not.
But when you don't use money, you run into all sorts of insurmountable problems like not being able to match supply with demand, not getting enough workers, not being able to calculate demand, etc.
Hey Buzz... would you mind posting your source for your thoughts that Peter "realizes how absurd it is to advocate an economic system that doesn't use money and wants to now backtrack from that."
ReplyDeleteI've never seen any indication to that regard.
Please enlighten us.
I'd also enjoy watching your documentary on how all of this is attainable using money, and where all the logic and reasoning of a RBE is flawed in that regard, so please post the link on that, thanks!
Leon,
ReplyDeleteI don't have evidence that he sees the absurdity of no money. It is only my opinion. But he is a smart guy, so I know he does see the absurdity.
There is a reason why there is nobody who understands the way economies work who is advocating eliminating money as a way to improve the world. It would make the world worse, not better.
And just like he says his conspiracy movie was an art project, I think he will eventually claim his RBE movie was more a project against the current monetary system and less about advocating an economic system that doesn't have money.
There is nothing he wants to accomplish in his theoretical RBE that money would prevent. What would an RBE not be able to accomplish if it used money?
"I'd also enjoy watching your documentary on how all of this is attainable using money"
The cost of a product is the time it takes to produce the final product for consumption and all its inputs. You assign that cost to everything you make, you add up the cost of everything you are able to produce per month and you divide that equally among everyone.
If your entire economy produces $500 worth of goods and services per month and you have a population of 100 people, you pay everyone a $5 income per month to spend. When someone buys a product, the product is deleted from the inventory and the money is deleted as well.
Now you have a valid, scientific system of measuring your production and consumption.
Without that system, people will demand more than you can produce, there would be no incentive to get people to work the jobs you don't have volunteers for and there would be no way for people to customize their consumption to their individual tastes.
With money I am able to buy a cheaper car so I can spend more money on electronics. I only play the keyboard occasionally so I don't need an $8,000 keyboard, a $500 keyboard would work just fine and I can spend the $7500 savings on things I have a greater interest in.
Without money, you are unable to do that. You cannot make a $500 keyboard and an $8,000 keyboard because everyone would always take the $8k one since there is no benefit not to.
"I'd also enjoy watching your documentary on how all of this is attainable using money"
ReplyDeleteWhat makes an idea scientifically valid is not whether a documentary was made about it. It must go through a peer review process based on strict academic standards.
None of Jacque's ideas are peer reviewed. So they are not scientific. Critics would point out that Jacque over simplifies everything. If his ideas were put to peer review, he would need to account for the complicated real world that we live in and in my opinion would never be able to stand up to the scrutiny.
The economic calculation debate is something that is mentioned here and in the ZM forums. But neither Neil, Peter or Stefan (who Peter debated with about) understand the debate!
The economic calculation debate was actually a peer reviewed claim, published in an economic journal and was held to academic standards.
What the debate proved was that a socialist system of prices through trial and error would be more efficient than a free market. That point was lost on everyone. And the debate had nothing to do with whether a system that doesn't use money could work.
TVP never came up with a real suggestion for action, and neither has TZM. They're just team jerseys like any other party. If you see past it, to the goal that I think pretty much everybody shares whether they identify with either movement or not, I think we can all find some real things to actually do that will get us a saner world.
ReplyDeleteI have a ~700 word suggestion here, really short. Virtually anyone can start doing it any time, almost anywhere, with little resources and no adult supervision.
Expect to see a lot more about this in the upcoming weeks and months; I may or may not be interviewed by Chet Gaines on the subject, and I will be putting the plan into practice in Fairbanks this summer, so as that evolves we'll be able to see if it's any good. Don't just wait for me, though. Read it, think about it, ask other people what they think - then find something to do!
http://optext.net/2011/04/11/ten-by-ten-onto-the-ark-of-self-sustenance/
(Blog and title not mine).
By the way, it includes an economic model that doesn't include money. It's not meant to be comprehensive and is designed to exist alongside the economy we're faced with now, but it still regulates the exchange of some goods without relying on any currency or strict equivalency of goods. I solved the supply and demand problem by limiting group size. You're welcome.
ReplyDeleteTypo,
ReplyDeleteSo you want people to work a second job in their spare time doing things like hunting or fishing or farming and then barter the stuff you produce with a small group of people?
What would that accomplish?
Why would someone want to work a second job doing primitive work in order to get stuff from other people they probably won't want?
If you want fish or berries, isn't it easier to just go to the store and buy it with the income you make from your first job?
How does people working 2 jobs and having to hunt or pick berries like it is the year 1611 make the world saner?
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ReplyDeleteOkay, but if you buy the Zeitgeist (or Tea Party, or frankly most people's) analysis that we should unglue ourselves from the corporate teat and shrug off the oppressive federal government and world banks, then it makes sense. If your goal is "get berries", obviously going to the store is easier. If your goal is "develop a new social system and way of dealing with each other economically, maybe eventually seek regional independence for some shitty place in the Arctic", my plan is a little more relevant.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't want the things people are offering, you could just not do it. A lot of people already hunt and fish in Alaska, so it wouldn't be a particular hardship or even weird there. I admit I'm writing in a particular place and time, but so is everybody else - the idea is adaptable. Certainly in Alaska, you can make a lot of things better than you can buy them, for cheaper, and it's really not that difficult. Keep in mind also that a lot of people are unemployed, and those jobs aren't coming back. They might as well have some infrastructure for making it easier to provide for themselves, out of reach of the vagaries of public policy.
I don't know how in love you are with the status quo, but that is what you're describing: perpetuating the things you've all been complaining about. Changing it takes work. If you Zeitgeist guys aren't just kidding, you should consider that maybe "post-scarcity" means making things yourself. But you're right, maybe youtube videos + praying for replicators is a better plan.
I would also point out that the whole idea is to produce things that people would otherwise be buying, so it's not like clumsily knit rayon leg warmers should be an issue. People can get together and talk to figure out what they would benefit from making. But the purpose, again, is to remove money from the equation as much as reasonably possible, especially for people who wouldn't have money or be doing much anyway.
ReplyDeleteI think this is something I'm willing to voluntier within my possibilities for a lifetime, but I won't accept authoritarism not from JF or RM or anyone else, they seemed reasonable people willing to discuss new ideas and possibilities if any of their followers proposed it like PJ did, but Roxanne seem authoritarian and for me that's a deal breaker and I'd support a RBE elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteThis has already happened. It is not the same thing. Now vizeram a new agreement. Check out these videos.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9hO0DMcJ3o&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTvzBJAB0Sw&feature=player_embedded
He loved to clarify something about the project with the movement. If you know Portuguese, or have a translator, please access this website:
ReplyDeletehttp://zdezeitgeist.blogspot.com/
Now I understand the separation between design and movement.
But Peter Joseph not to blame, he just suffer emotionally, I do not know how to say in English, but I hope you can understand. Someone must walk in the place of Peter, ocntrolando movement, and realizing this project, left the movement in April, the movement is dead since April, since the project broke, more Peter Joseph, it can only control the movement with 50 %. He can not even answer all the questions that many do suffer emotional attack, and everything is out of control. The movement was once a good creation, but is now weak. At that treat this problem in the bud, I'm still accepting them, but since that treat the problem at its root.
Thanks.
Please, visit my website and join to us.
ReplyDeletemy blog support the venus project and zeitgeist movement. Please join, i love the two anyway. :)
http://vofvenusproject.blogspot.com/
Please join. have a nice day.